Episode 13 – Demand Generation with Janelle Amos

Show notes

This week, Sidney sits down with Janelle Amos, a demand generation and SaaS consultant, and the founder of (Elevate Growth). The two discuss Janelle’s journey into entrepreneurship and how you can implement demand generation into your small business!
In this episode of EntreNetwork we cover several key topics including:
What is demand generation (4:01)
The overlap between demand generation and lead generation (8:22)
Recourses you can use to do demand generation for your business (11:14)
How to get leadership to pivot into demand generation (12:07)
Looking at the metrics that matter (14:41)
Challenging myself to “walk the walk” (18:00)
TikTok in addition to LinkedIn (20:41)
Analyze your journey yourself (28:51)

Connect with Janelle!
Connect with her on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/janellesabin/
Visit her website: www.elevate-growth.com

This is brought to you by Revision Marketing Group

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Sidney Jackson 00:00
Hey guys, welcome back to the entre network Podcast. Today I’ll be talking to Janelle Amos, who is a demand generation consultant, she just founded her business. That’s elevate growth. So with that, she focuses on demand generation for b2b SaaS companies. So we’ll talk about her overall journey into entrepreneurship and how it’s going. We’ll also talk about demand generation, how you can implement it for small businesses, as well as b2b SaaS companies. We talk about the difference between demand generation and lead generation, we even talked about tick tock and LinkedIn for content. So it’s, it’s action packed as far as the value added to the audience. And with that, of course, with entrepreneurship, we always look at the return on investment. So she also touches on when you can expect the return on investment for this overall strategy. So stay tuned. I know I learned, I learned a lot within this episode. So I hope you guys learned a lot as well on your

Team RMG 00:57
network brought to you by revision marketing group, this podcast is meant to serve as an entrepreneurial knowledge base of wisdom and practical tips in marketing, branding, and technology to help grow your business effectively.

Janelle Amos 01:10
So well, that kind of goes into my entire background. So bear with me, as I kind of explained the journey. I always had, you know, like aspirations of wanting to start my own demand firm. But I never really had like the fire behind my shoes to do that. And it wasn’t until the very last company that I was at, they were asking me to make a decision that I didn’t feel that was morally or ethically appropriate. And I had a really hard time thinking about the decision, you know, whether I should keep it or or keep my job, or whether I should resign. And essentially, they gave me 30 days to decide to stay at the company or to disagree with it, and to be discharged. And it was probably one of the most like, challenging decisions of my entire life. And I began asking people all around what they would do, I asked my family asked my friends asked my professional network, like everybody who knew me in one sets a form or another, to try and gather like objective opinions on what they would do, and what they would advise me to do, given how well they know me. And, you know, it was, they gave me that 30 days to decide. And so the two weeks was going back and forth on trying to figure out what my stance was, the other two weeks was actually deciding that, okay, you know, I’m not okay with this, and I’m going to branch out, and I’m going to move forward with it. And so really getting that fire behind my shoes of I can’t fail, and branching out, that’s really what drove me to actually doing my own business and being an entrepreneur. So, you know, the fact of being challenged by a decision that I didn’t feel comfortable with gave me the initiative to say, you know, we need to do something different. We need to pivot

Sidney Jackson 02:56
indeed, no, that’s incredible. And he was able to just jump into entrepreneurship like that. And you said, your husband, he’s entrepreneur as well.

Janelle Amos 03:06
Yeah, he’s had his own business for the last time, okay. And he’s been just kind

Sidney Jackson 03:09
of pushing you for the last couple of years to just kind of branch off and do your own thing or

Janelle Amos 03:14
so we always talk about having like passive income, and finding a way for us to grow in our own ways. And then to have kind of like the income just been as a roll up of the things that we like to do. And so he’s like, you know, you really like demand gen. Why don’t you do a business with it, and then bring in passive income, you know, and that’s that. And so he’s always been, like, having the business mindset. And so he’s always wanted that

Sidney Jackson 03:40
for me. Oh, that’s incredible. So for our audience, so this podcast is us kind of talking Well, he didn’t know, kind of touching on demand generation, what it is and how it can benefit different businesses, of all shapes and sizes, pretty much. So for you, how did you well, what is demand generation for people who don’t know?

Janelle Amos 04:01
Yeah, so I actually love diving into that question. And think of Legion as more transactional. And think of demand gen, as building a following building a brand. So with lead gen, it’s the mindset of what can I get in to get something out the direct one to one exchange, and demand gen, it’s about going after the right people at the right time with the right pain points in the right solutions. So it’s about demand and it’s about having the fact that it’s okay to have a marketing campaign that doesn’t one to one directly translate into lead results. You know, it’s the fact that it’s interconnected into the larger marketing strategy. And I actually have a specific use case that I love to explain it with. Because I’m an avid shopper. So the way that I like to explain is the fact that you know you’re going to the mall, and so you want to buy one item like a scarf or a pair of shoes, but you’re not exactly sure like where to get that from and you have two stores in mind, you know, store a and store B and So you make your way to the mall and you realize that story and store B are on two opposite sides of the mall end, right? So you’re on one end, you go into store a you look around, you explore, you check things out, you look at prices, you’re like, okay, cool, I kind of get a better understanding of what I want. But I still really want to go look at store B, just to see if they have any discounts or any new inventory, right? So you lead story, you go on your journey on to store B, and anybody who has been in a mall knows that there’s like these little kiosks that are in between, like the middle of the mall walkways, right. And throughout your journey between story and store B, you get hounded by like about eight different persons that kiosk people. And they’re trying to ask you about your hair straight in to try to ask if you want special lotion to ask you to get your shoe shine, whatever, right? But they’re just they’re talking to everybody and anybody just trying to do to get anybody to focus on them. Right? And all you want to do you as a consumer is a no thank you, you know, appreciate it. No, thank you, I just want to get to store B, I just want to get the survey because you already know what it is that you want, where you want to go and what you’re looking for. Right. So the way that I explained demand gen versus lead gen is that demand is about having that brand recognition of the store a in store B to be already thought of like ahead of time when you’re looking for your product. And lead gen is the background of like the persistent kiosk, people who want to sell you something just to sell you something, they have no idea, if you have money for it, you have a need for it, if you care about it, nothing. They just need to make the sale. So they’re doing everything in their power to just cold outreach, talk to anybody that’s coming by within the hallway and just hope that somebody steps in anyone, right. And even if one person does stop it for the free lotion for the hair straight in the shoeshine, whatever it is, it’s very unlikely that that person is going to want to buy every single product that you have on the shelf, all your different lotion variations, all your different, you know, shoe shining products. And so when we translate that to a b2b SaaS model, it would be very difficult to sell your entire product suite, by doing a lead gen approach of just having anybody right come through, you know you’re interested in is one set of lotion, but we have all the other things you know, that you need to be thinking of as well. It really like, you know, I’m only half sold on the lotion, no thank you to the rest, right. So it creates that barrier. And that challenge in the process in general, to wear in demand gen. Somebody is already walking into your store, right? They’re already there. They’re just looking they’re trying to find the right product for that. But even though that example is a little bit extreme, it’s one of my favorites, because I always think that it’s true, I’ll ask you, when was the last time you went to the mall and actually bought something from a kiosk?

Sidney Jackson 07:44
Not in a while. I remember, in Monroe, which is in Louisiana. It’s in Louisiana, but I went to Monroe and this guy, he was trying to show my shoes, and I was like, no good. I just want to go ahead and go to this place. Yeah, right over here. But no, that was a really good visual was liquidation of the difference between lead in demand generation. So for you, what’s the Do they have any kind of overlap? Or do you have like an overall strategy for demand generation, while also having lead generation? Or how does that work?

Janelle Amos 08:22
Yeah. So the way that I like to position demand gen is that you have to think of it in a different lens, it is technically lead gen, because you want to bring in quality people into your store, right, you want to have the traffic into your store, nobody’s saying that that’s wrong, or you shouldn’t be doing that, or you need to be pivoting away from that. The thing that demand generation takes into consideration is understanding that because one person walks into a store, it’s not going to be a one to one sale, that person could not live in that area, and they could go to another location and buy from the same store somewhere else. Right? So it’s about analyzing the marketing initiatives as a whole. So it technically I guess, is lead gen, but you’re understanding your audience better, you’re understanding the placements of your products better, you’re understanding the promotional efforts where these audiences are, and you know where you want to be in front of so it’s, it’s essentially lead gen but with a quality lens overtop of it to attract the right prospects at the right time, that are actually interested in your in your product.

Sidney Jackson 09:22
So pretty much basically meeting a person where they are in the overall buyer journey, instead of treating everybody the same and trying to get a lead in to be that one transaction kind of thing. Yeah,

Janelle Amos 09:36
but it’s also very difficult to find somebody like to meet them where they are like, how do you know how can you measure how can you analyze how can you adequate where somebody is in the journey? So it’s also making sure that as somebody is beginning that journey, where are those journeys being taken place? That’s where you want to be because once somebody is entered the buyers journey, like they had their decision made, right, like we’re going to start a and we’re going to start B What are the components that are behind somebody making a decision on why they want the product that they want? Why they’re considering story in store B, that’s where we want to be a part of from a demand standpoint.

Sidney Jackson 10:10
Okay. And as far as says, Your overall background and demand generation, what other industry does that kind of translate to? Or is it just industry wide.

Janelle Amos 10:21
So I think demand generation can be translated to any business. Honestly, if, if you’re wanting to bring more quality, if you want to bring higher quality prospects to your business to buy whatever product you’re selling, or any type of service that you’re selling, the go to market strategy behind that should still essentially be the same, you still want to attract the right quality people, right, you still want to attract those that are probably going to be long term customers with you. And they’re not going to have a high turn rate. And so I don’t think it’s specific to directly SAS I think anybody as a business owner, you know, as a profitable business, they need to be understanding where their audiences and meeting them to what makes sense in their industry and their products. Wait.

Sidney Jackson 11:02
Awesome. So as far as like, resources that you can use to do demand generation, what would they be just in your overall history of SAS startups and things like that?

Janelle Amos 11:14
Yeah, I’d say start with hiring demand expert, somebody who has actually done it before and understands your market and your audience. I think a lot of people want to translate industries to industries directly one to one same as they want to have the output within Legion. But I think the difference to that is dimension is understanding your audience. So without having a learning curve of who this audience is, I think it’s having you know, that expert in house that can go in and understand your audience at scale to then put in those campaigns in place.

Sidney Jackson 11:45
Okay, so for businesses that are more traditional, where they haven’t done any kind of demand generation, and it’s basically just sells, well sales driven? How can you actually pivot a company like that to be more focused on demand generation?

Janelle Amos 12:02
Yeah, that those are really hard questions to have and conversations to have internally. But essentially, the pivoting starts from the top down, if they’re finding that the sales cycle is taking too long, they’re finding that they’re not hitting the revenue goal, if they’re ready to start making a change, leadership has to have the eye opening, coming to do this moment that they’re ready for a business change. Because demand generation isn’t just one person, it’s an entire company alignment, right. And so you can’t just hire one demand person and say, We’re gonna fix all the revenue problems, like demand generation is so like, you know, like dependent on other people as well. And so having the buy in from leadership, having, you know, the support from leadership, the resources from leadership, that’s gonna be the best start up. And so having those conversations with the leadership team is talking about the business outcomes, it’s talking about, Hey, you want to do this at scale, you want to grow at a faster rate, you want to, you know, the things that actually matter to them are money. And it’s timelines. And so having the conversations on if you want to drive more money, if you want to have your compound annual growth rate from x to x, you know, in such amount of timeframe, these are the strategies, strategies that need to be in place in order for you to achieve that.

Sidney Jackson 13:13
So for smaller businesses, such as a mom and pop shop, here in Shreveport that, like four or five employees, how can they benefit from demand generation,

Janelle Amos 13:25
things the same way understanding where your audiences and you know, whatever method of channels that are needed to attract whatever Mom and Pop, if it’s just kind of word of mouth, then it’s going back into the community and having the key conversations with the community, the mom and pop stores, you know, most of them, it’s Hey, I know seconds love to know such and such, you know, such and such, how can you be a part of those such and such conversations?

Sidney Jackson 13:50
Now? That’s really good. Go then. So with that one can what of course is different for business to business? But as far as like the return on investment for demand generation, is it kind of give us insight into what that looks like?

Janelle Amos 14:07
Yeah, so my background is b2b SaaS, so bear with me, because that’s the majority of my experience. But, you know, I get the question often on how quickly can we see the return on on this new strategy change in this new strategy pivot? And the long answer to that is, depending on how long your sales cycle is, a lot of enterprise b2b SaaS can be upwards of like six to nine months. So at a minimum, you have to give it at least one year to really fully analyze if it’s working or not. But what I like to say as leading up to his conversations with leadership, is to start looking at the metrics that matter, right, like let’s start looking at the pipeline acceleration. Let’s start looking at how fast the sales cycles are moving for if you’re getting an increase in Website Conversions, are they the right conversions? Are they more demo requests? Are those demo requests turning into opportunities faster? Are those opportunities associating with a higher dollar amount than we’ve been seeing prior, those are the little nuggets you measure and you showcase throughout the journey. Then at the end of the year, or the two year evaluation period, you can say, hey, we invested X amount of marketing dollars, this is the amount that we’re seeing in terms of like the overall investment to the ROI, write the return on what we’re, we’re analyzing, and we’re trying to figure out, and we were establishing the breadcrumbs throughout to keep the support and to keep the enthusiasm to where after, when we were actually successful with the demand generation strategy, we can say, boom, you know, this is how we did that, you know, thank you for your trust. Thank you for your confidence. This is how we’re going to position us going forward.

Sidney Jackson 15:39
Wow. So I am someone I’m extremely new to like b2b SaaS, but it’s extremely interesting to get more insight into it. So as far as like leadership, what’s the biggest pushback that you receive from leadership as far as implementing this new strategy?

Janelle Amos 15:55
Yeah, so if they’ve been doing like a sales lead motion, or lead gen motion, the biggest conversation is that they can’t actually measure it. They’re stuck in the mindset of the transactional mindset, you know, having to put one thing in and get one thing out, you know, and so that’s the biggest roadblock, guess the biggest challenge and to just come in and say, Hey, trust me, that doesn’t always work with leadership, right? Like, but like I mentioned, to have the conversations, they have to be open to that change, they have to be privy to the fact that whatever we’re looking to change, whether it’s the increase in revenue, like there has to be a problem associated with it, to where they can then come to go and say, Okay, now I’m ready to invest X and trust you and see that return. Because without that, I mean, demand generation, it can’t happen. If you’re constantly measured on the one to one, there’s no way there’s way too many frictions that’s going to stand in place to really showcase that value.

Sidney Jackson 16:48
So what companies have you seen, in your history implementing this new strategy are not afraid of the new strategy?

Janelle Amos 16:58
Yeah. So I mean, Chris Walker with refined labs, he’s like the leading industry, marketing influencer, talking about demand gen, that the conversations to have the leadership had actually go about that he’s built his business on that same strategy in that same approach. So if anybody wants to look at the how to do this, where to go to like, he’s kind of that goat. But I will also say one of the last companies that I was at as well, they’re called reprise. And they, I mean, leadership from the top down, they were on board when I was joining, and I was talking them about it, they were like, you know, we get it, demand generation takes time we get it, you need these resources. And so we were having those quality conversations. That was very refreshing for me. And so those are just a couple of companies that get it that have been doing it that aren’t afraid to tackle the market and to be something different.

Sidney Jackson 17:47
Wow. So for you and all of this expertise and knowledge that you have in demand generation, how have you been able to benefit from that, while going into full time into your own business?

Janelle Amos 18:00
Yeah, no, I love that question, too. Because a lot of things that I’ve been reading about on LinkedIn has been like, don’t just walk the walk, you know, or don’t just talk the talk, walk the walk. I said that backwards. And one of the biggest controversies on LinkedIn is tick tock. Right. And so everybody’s like, should should businesses be on tick tock? Should you be on tick tock from like, a professional stance? Is it just all things personal, and, you know, there’s, there’s just been a lot of talk on whether it fits within the b2b world. And so I was talking about, you know, being first to market and, you know, not just being perfect and getting something out there and testing and figuring it out, and like learning for yourself. And so I challenged myself and said, Yo, like, I can’t just talk the talk, I have to walk the walk too. So I put myself on Tiktok. I’ve been documenting my whole journey to consulting series, I’ve been trying to blog about it. So anybody else who is interested in consulting, or is put in a similar situation to me, and they have to make that pivot quickly. Here are some items, right that you can think of that I’ve learned along the way that potentially you can learn to not, you know, you don’t have to learn as hard of a lesson as I did, I should say. And so because that’s been my top performing content. I translated that to tic toc. And I mean, the consistency of the impressions, the reach, I mean, it’s been absolutely crazy. And so the fact that with just a little test, I’ve been able to see the results from tick tock from a professional standpoint, and challenging myself to say we need to try something new. And using that demand generation mindset, like where’s my audience at? Where are these marketers at? Right? So really challenging myself in my own business on my marketing strategy to win more customers? It was one of the things that I had to take to market myself.

Sidney Jackson 19:43
Oh, wow. So tick tock week. So funny enough, we have been discussing tic toc a lot what they need to pass two or three months here a revision to see, is this a strategy or is this a platform that we can actually use? Get on. And it makes sense, because we create a lot of content, such as love video content, which is going to be really good for Tik Tok. But we’ve been putting it on different channels that we know, like and trust. So it is some risks involved with like, just tick tock overall. And I’m trying to see if it’s worth it. So I’m super interested in subscribing to the content that you’re creating where you were, I don’t have to repeat some of the errors that you made. Not. But with that, how do you feel about tick tock versus LinkedIn? Because I’ve been seeing a lot of content from you on LinkedIn. So

Janelle Amos 20:41
I don’t think the mindset of versus one versus the other should be, you know, the conversation, I think it should be how can we be on those? Right? So again, understanding where your audience is, for me, I go after marketers, right? I want to work with marketing teams and marketing leaders with my business. Where are those marketers at? They’re on LinkedIn, like, it would be a no brainer for me not to consider LinkedIn with the, you know, the business network, the capabilities, the connecting the networking, and all of that. It’s a no brainer, right? But it’s also taking the fact that US, US individuals are being challenged by the b2c world with like Amazon and Instacart, and DoorDash, with the instant gratification, and you know, the tailored pneus and everything that’s me, me, me, me, me now. Now. Now. Now. Now, you have to translate that mentality to the person as well, like, as much as we’re speaking to businesses, we’re speaking to a person behind a business name, you know, so what makes that person then where are they consuming their content? What do they do after work hours? Tick, tock is one of those, especially for me, you know, I’m in bed late at night, and I’m scrolling through my tic tock videos, right? Like, I’m not on it on like my nine to five, because I’m on LinkedIn, I’m on, you know, my company website, I’m working on my strategies. But after hours, me as a person, you know, where do I consume that content? So I don’t think it’s too much as one versus the other. I think it’s understanding your best performing pieces of content, and finding ways to translate that with how each platform likes their content, and produces or content and distributes that content. So you know, a great example is my journey to consulting series on LinkedIn. That’s a blog, that’s just me writing on tick tock, that’s me behind a video talking about it. Right. And it’s sometimes shortening that sometimes it’s going into it showing my personality. I’m not just like reading a script behind it. It’s take into consideration that shorter videos are better than longer videos, tick tock caps, you, I think you have like a 15 second 30 or 60 seconds, and like a three minute one, right? So if my blog is going on for 10 pages, what are the the smart snippets that I can take from that format? Tic tock video, so

Sidney Jackson 22:53
Wow, no, that definitely works, because it’s also repurposing the content and meeting the odd while not meeting them where they are. But pretty much looking at LinkedIn, and saying what performs well on that and then adjust into different platforms, where it’s not just a shotgun approach with everything looking and feeling the same. Of course, you can’t do that on tick tock, but I know you’re getting a lot more out of the content that you produce. Because if it’s a 10 page blog, you already did a lot of the time to collect all of those thought, thoughts and then type up that article. But how do you get more out of that? So now, that’s an incredible strategy. Also, I want to touch on the overall target audience. So for lead generation versus demand generation. So you touched on like the overall understanding of this specific target audience? Is that a barrier for leadership to enter into demand generation because they have to know a little bit more about their overall target audience,

Janelle Amos 23:58
potentially. So oftentimes, it could go probably one of two ways One leadership is is onpoint. This is what we’re targeting. And they’re right. They’re just not doing the go to market strategy correctly. Right. So that’s when you revise the your go to market. Sometimes leadership is saying, Hey, I only want to talk to CEOs, I only want to talk to CTOs. And you’re limiting your audience that way. And so a demand generation strategy is saying that’s great. But it’s also highly unlikely that a CEO is going to be the one that’s doing the research that’s reaching out and talking to the sales team that’s evaluating the different competitors, the pricing components, the fit within the team that they’re wanting to integrate the product with, who are the influencers? Who you know, who are those that that CEO has around him, you know, the CTO has around them? Who are they talking to? You what you want to do is be a part of the conversations that the CEOs have, and you want to be visible to those that they’re going to be talking to. So a great example is CEOs like to go golfing right so on weekends, you’ll catch them all on the golf course. So they’ll be having the conversation of oh, hey, I heard such and such as the new product to market. Have you tried it? Oh, yeah, you know, I heard about it or No, I haven’t heard about it, what does it do? And those are the conversations that they’re going to be having on the golf course. And then when they get back on Monday morning, they’re going to go to I don’t know, like the VP of marketing, and they’re going to say, hey, such and such, you know, I had this great conversation with, you know, Frank over at whatever company name, and they just saw this new product, have you heard of it? And the VP is gonna be like, oh, yeah, oh, my god, I just read this article about it, or like, I just saw, you know, this webinar or whatever piece of content on LinkedIn, about it. So the brand awareness is there. And then the CEO is going to be like, oh, cool, can you look more into that, I’d really like to learn more about how that can fit to our company. So the VP goes to her director, you know, the director does the research, or the manager does the research or whatever level of the team structure that it is. And then they go to the website, they submit the demo form, they talk to sales, they do their you know, competitor analysis, they do all the you know, the due diligence that’s needed, and they ultimately buy the product. So what what were the influencers? The fact that the influencer to the CEO knew about it via the content that was on LinkedIn, the webinars, right, and that the sea level was talking about it based on where they are the golf courses, you know, after hours, like happy hours, right? Those are the demand strategies on understanding where your audience is understanding how to how to have the right message at the right time, right, and then also having just a solid product that could actually win a deal. I think that’s something to start with, right, like actually being good enough to buy.

Sidney Jackson 26:38
Wow. So I’m with the overall product. Where does the handoff in for demand generation is it pretty much the same as lead generation where you have this person, and then they come to the website, they fill out the demo? And pretty much the company takes on after that?

Janelle Amos 26:59
That’s a really great question. And also a great differentiator between lead gen and demand gen. Lead Gen to your point is very transactional, they did the conversion point that I wanted to might wipe my hands clean, they’re in the sales hands, sales doesn’t close them. They’re pointing fingers at each other, you’re driving quality leads, you know, you don’t know how to close sales. And you’re just getting that friction between the two teams. demand gen is talking about the overall customer experience it’s talking about, even though they submitted that website, like demo form, are they still talking to a sales team? What’s that follow up time? What does that process look like? If they submitted a demo form? Are they going to an SDR who’s going to ask them 15 checklists of discoveries, they’re not actually getting a demo, if they’re requesting a demo, like those are the friction points in the customer journey. So demand generation is very much taking everything in consideration from like starting point ending point, because the end goal is to have stronger lifetime value rates, it’s to have Customer Relationships for Life, it’s to grow the revenue, as high as possible with as less of churn as possible. And obviously, like, with the most, the highest amount of opportunity deals to write. And so analyzing any points of friction, any points of you know, why somebody wouldn’t buy or the frustration behind it. And I always like to model, you know, what b2c companies are doing because they get it, and we’re the ones that are spoiled by it. And b2b makes so many excuses like, oh, well, we can’t because x, we can’t do that. Because x it’s like, but have you even tried it? Right? It’s having that, you know, considering something different mindset. So I think that’s another great example, between lead gen and demand them awesome.

Sidney Jackson 28:35
So I think the last thing is just leaving the audience with the last piece of advice, to get into demand generation or get or jump out of lead, or transition away from just heavy sales focus, and slowly jump into demand generation,

Janelle Amos 28:57
I think, a great first step is to analyze your journey yourself, your customer, your company, Journey yourself, right? Take off your marketing lenses, like really tick them off, because it’s really hard to do. And go through the process yourself. Like, Have you submitted a demo request form? What does that process look like? Do you get a thank you message? Do you get a calendar booking link? Do you get an email follow up? Like what does that process look like? Are you okay with that? Are you frustrated by it? Where could you have learned more throughout the process? And that’s a great place to start and then compiling those thoughts and going to your leader, like a marketing team leader and saying, hey, you know, I just did this, and I saw these results. And could we be doing this a little bit better and come with both the problems and like some potential solutions? And just start opening the conversation that way? How can we be better at this? How can we be more focused on our customers? And if you start getting that buy in, then we can start talking about the larger strategy on how we can make this from you know, an org wide perspective instead of something that just marketing